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If you try long enough.....

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:49 pm
by Vincent.vanGinneke
Again -or still- for sale on Catawiki by Dutch Lion Motorcycles .

https://veiling.catawiki.nl/kavels/2750 ... 50-cc-1943

A W/NG previously discussed on here .
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5678&p=36134&hilit=Dutch+Lion#p36134
At the time of this earlier posting the price was 6950,- now on their website for 4950,-
any takers ?

All sorts of parts wrong and not period on it but now there is a picture with the 'framenumber' .
DU 1824. DU is a 1955 swingarm frame code, and on a swingarm it would have been on the other side.
Indeed they write that the framenumber is from a later Ariel.

"Framenr is from a later year ariel"

Obviously a new stamping (forgery ? did I mention that ?) , anyway, it will lead to a interesting discussion at the office of the Dutch RDW ....
I've emailed the Catawiki Expert John Searle about this a few days ago but no reply.
At the bottom of the text there is -in Dutch- a reminder that buyer is responsible for getting it licenced.
Yeah right, after you have explained that you really, really, really did not nick it.. you need a lovely pair of blue eyes .

Be carefull …..

5fcad522-0431-490a-90ec-0d547fa131c7.jpg

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:15 pm
by simon.holyfield
Presumably the original stamping has been ground off or is missing?

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:26 pm
by Knud.Degnbol
The number is stamped in the wrong place.

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:28 am
by john.whiting
Wouldnt matter here...Transport wouldnt know what an Ariel was,certainly wouldnt know where the number should be,and probably wouldnt care......just so long as the number didnt come up as stolen,it would just breeze thru......Years ago ,I took a WLA to get registered.....they got no frame number......anyway ,I was sent down to the basement .where they used to check the truck numbers,and an old coot came out with a set of stamps 1" high ,and a 4lb brickies hammer.......ok for truck engines,not a bike.......anyway he couldnt get a number on the frame,due to the giant stamps.......so he says... i,ll just use the engine number...And that was it.

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:20 am
by chris.vredenbregt
Having no number was normal in case of army vehicles so lots of dutch war harley's in holland ride with legal made-up numbers but changed or removed numbers are are criminal .a friend of mine had his newly restored bmw checked for a licenceplate to find out that his framenumber already exsisted and drove around in the end he could prove that his frame had the original number so be carefull with numbers

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:48 am
by Vincent.vanGinneke
Just got a reply from John Searle,

Beste Voncent, (yep, the o is near the i )
Bedankt voor je gewaardeerde opmerkingen! Je weet een hoop van vooroorlogse Ariels! (ed. veer in reet)
We proberen de verkopers aan te sporen om zoveel mogelijk foto's toe te voegen zodat bieders weten waar ze op bieden.
Bedankt voor je interesse, neem gerust contact op als u nog vragen of opmerkingen heeft.
Vriendelijke groet,
Kind Regards,
John Searle
Category Lead Motorcycle

In English;
Thank you for your esteemed comment. You know a lot about prewar Ariels ! (ed. feather in ars)
We try to get sellers to submit as much pictures as possible so bidders know what they bid on.
Thank you for your interest, do contact us again if you have any more questions or remarks.
best regards, ………..

So pretty much useless -as expected- to tell the Catawiki expert anything or have comment.
I probably meet him next Central Classics autojumble or maybe in the lobby of Hotel Santemar :D

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:52 pm
by Wim.LaMaitre
They appear to have taken action after Vincent's comments, but not in a way I would have expected.instead they seem to double down. They removed the text that the frame nr is of a later year and added a note that it comes from a small French war museum, which I find just a bit strange seen the comments above that when they first advertised the bike was black. Conclusions drawn...

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:44 am
by Vincent.vanGinneke
Hello Wim,
The information about the framenumber is to be found on their website.
I did not read that it comes from a French war museum.
My ever nasty mind tells me that it could have been hiding for 30 years after being nicked and upon reappearance got 'framed' with a fantasy swingarm number or the stamping man had papers of a fifties Ariel lying around, Who knows….?
Bidding now halted at a trifle under what Lion wants for it on their website.
Again my nasty mind tells me that the straw man is waiting…..

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:09 pm
by Wim.LaMaitre
Ariel - WNG - ex WW2 - 350 cc - 1943 - Catawiki.pdf
(870.77 KiB) Downloaded 64 times

Hi Vincent,
When responding to issues like this I keep my records. I yesterday made a pdf of the Catawiki page with reference to the French war museum, it should be attached to this response.
You can see they still mention the frame number, but have removed the note that it is from a later year.

Re: If you try long enough.....

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:13 pm
by Wim.LaMaitre
Addition to previous. Assuming I am not getting senile, I am sure that it was mentioned to be from a French war museum, but I now realise the pdf does not mention French...