ARIEL LEADER ENGINE PROBLEM

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adrie.degraaff
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Re: ARIEL LEADER ENGINE PROBLEM

Postby adrie.degraaff » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:55 pm

Now it's a bit late but there is an easy way to check your ignition; when at your not starting point, take the plugs out, pour in 1 ccm petrol in the holes, pluggs back in, then start full throttle, when starting your coils are oké.

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alan.richmond
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Postby alan.richmond » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:50 pm

Alan, you can buy a little gadget that fits in line with your HT lead to the plug for a couple of pounds, , which flashes each time the plug fires. I found this very useful on my Velo LE when it had intermittent running problems. If they flash, it's not an ignition problem. No flash, you have a problem somewhere in the ignition system.

I doubt that both coils, or both condensers would fail at the same time, so it may not be ignition. Have you thought about a vapor lock? If fuel coming down to the carb. has to flow uphill in a loop in the fuel pipe. and it gets hot from radiated or conducted heat from the now hot engine, it can vaporize, and form an air (well, fuel) lock, stopping the flow. When the engine cools down, the vapor condenses, and the engine will start again. Same as your symptoms. A spacer, insulation, or a shorter fuel pipe could be the solution.

Good luck.
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Re: ARIEL LEADER ENGINE PROBLEM

Postby gordon sutton » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:11 am

hi allan.i have owned ariel arrows and leaders for 40 odd years,and i have probably experienced every sort of problem possible.a few years back one of my arrows would choke it self to death when i gave it some welly.what was happening was the choke flap in the carburettor was being sucked shut and then it drew two much fuel through the float chamber.another problem i experienced was the charging system was not charging the battery and the battery eventually ran out of power.the other possibility is the centre seal on the crankshaft.these have a short life span of arround 30.000 miles.when they fail to seal they they fail to seperate the two sides of the engine and primary compression is transfered from one cylinder to the other. through the seals.the coil idea is not likely because both coils would have to fail together and you have to be very unlucky for that to happen.

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Re: ARIEL LEADER ENGINE PROBLEM

Postby Roger James » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:00 pm

Hi Alan,
As mentioned in a previous message, a simple vapour lock could be the problem, its happened to other Leader/Arrow owners when out intially enjoying a ride out, there's a small venting hole/tube in the filler cap that when new would have had a ball bearing inside, shake the cap and you should hear it rattling around, sometimes they get stuck - the vent hole allows air to be draw into the fuel tank as the level goes down as the running engine uses it, if vent hole is blocked although engine will fire up and run after awhile it can stop fuel flowing down the pipe to the carb, a period of non use is usually enough for the air inside the tank to equalise so will allow petroil to flow to carb again, engine to start and certain amount of mileage to be covered before symptoms arise again and engine cuts out. Even with a clear vent hole on the Arrow its possible for the base of the seat to rest on top of the fuel filler cap and block the hole off, shouldnt be a problem on a Leader though resting on the lip of the bodyshell.
I would have been suspicious of a faulty condenser if you are running a standard points system (sorry if youve said you are on electronic ignition set up, missed it) - condensers can work perfectly when cold but break down when hot, and they get very hot fitted to side of primary chaincase however if a faulty condenser I'm sure you would have noticed a misfire of some kind.
If its not a blocked air vent and ruling out a faulty condenser breaking down then I would suspect the centre seal is faulty and breaking down, although your engine has been rebuilt, we dont know what seals were used, its not been confirmed but there is a suspicion of Ethanol in the petrol having a detrimental effect on some rubber seals, I've had to replace two centre seals this year on my Arrows, they were the single double lipped seal, on one engine the offside centre lip had gone completely hard although strangely the nearside centre lip was still flexible, this one gets the best flow of fuel circulating around inside, on the othe Arrow engine it started easily hot or cold and ran perfectly for a few miles before power dropped off and eventually began to struggle going up hills, opening the throttle made it worse although once top of hill had been achieved and back on flat road the speed would pick up and run as though nothing was wrong, did all the usual checks, ignition, carb, fuel flow etc eventually resigning myself to stripping the crank out to check the seals, found the double lipped centre seal in one piece and flexible but close examination under a magnifying glass showed that the rubber seals were subject of numerous fine cracks and presumably breaking down under load when engine was running. New seals had been fitted to this engine only a few hundred miles previously when crank was changed - what the two engines had in common was that they had been fitted using new old stock Ariel seals, obviously not a good idea now they are getting on in age and I now only fit newly purchased seals from my local bearing supplier and I dont fit Nitrile seals anymore but Viton Seals that are a reddish colour.
Also recently a friend who had fitted new crank seals to his Leader engine had a power loss within a few hundred miles, a strip down found the old stock Ariel centre seal had disintegrated, he too now fits Viton seals.
Hope the above helps, try checking the easy accessible things first but if problems persist you might have to remove the crank and change the centre and end cover seals.

In an early message you mentioned running the oil/petrol mix at 40 - 1 I reckon that is far too lean a mix even with modern 2 Stroke oils especially for old iron barrels fitted to the Leader engine, they need good lubrication would recommend at least a 25 - 1 mix.

Jess

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Re:

Postby Mick.addison » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:28 pm

john.nash wrote:We cannot _make_ people own the two strokes AND use this forum.
We're only a 3 months old, here, and most seem to be fourstroke.

Might I suggest the two stroke yahoo group:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/ariela ... oup/?tab=s



Regarding this link to the arrow/leader group. I logged onto this about six weeks ago and applied to become a member. Since that time I have been unable to access the site because it says my membership is still being validated. I suspect this should have been sorted by now if everything was working as it should be. There has been no reply in my junk mail. Now I can not access the site to apply to be a member , can anyone help please?

Secondly. I have just bought my third Leader. The previous owner says he has restored it and it should start easily. I have managed to start it after twenty or thirty kicks twice but now it simply refuses to start . When it did start there was, as expected, a huge volume of smoke. The battery is good, the spark at the plugs is good, petrol is in the tank. Any suggestions please?
Cheers Mick

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Postby Roger James » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:52 am

Hello Allan,
Well done for persevering with your Leader, having read your latest message with the reference to the bike having been restored a message comes to mind received this week from a friend who has taken on the rebuild of a Arrow engine that had been subject of a restoration that wasnt starting and running very well, upon stripping it down he found two of the head bolts had bottomed out on the studs so wasnt tightening the head down properly allowing an air leak, there were no gaskets on underside of the barrels or either crankcase end covers, the crank was a recon unit but the centre seal was hard and cracked.
I had problems with the running of one of my Arrow engines this year, it would start perfectly well hot or cold but after running for a few miles the power would drop off in particular climbing even a modest hill incline having to drop down through the gears but once on the flat the speed would pick up again, couldnt go on like this and after going through all the usual checks without making any difference I stripped the crank out to find the centre seal was rock hard and under close investigation covered in very fine cracks. This was a new old stock Ariel double lipped seal fitted only a few years ago when I changed the crankshaft. Having had another of these new old stock seals fail in another engine I dont trust them anymore and now fit Viton seals that I get via my local bearing supplier..
So in answer to your question, from my experience a faulty centre seal will work o.k. for a while allowing you to start the engine but will cause running problems a few miles down the road. It will then allow you to restart the engine again without showing signs of being faulty next time you go to start it, eventually though I suppose the seal would get to the state where it wouldnt alow the engine to start and run at all.
I'm not saying for sure that youre Leader engine problem is due to the centre seal but its worth keeping in mind if the running problems persist.

Happy Spannering.
Jess

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Postby Roger James » Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:16 am

Mick,
Firstly, joining the Arrow/Leader forum group - try again, Barry is usually very good at processing enquiries from someone interested in joining, occasionally emails and messages can go astray.

Regarding your Third Leader - Having to presume the restoration has been done properly then I think your engine is simply flooded something we all experience from time to time. Everytime the engine is run and parked up, the petrol in the mixture in the crankcase department will evaporate leaving neat oil to drop down to the bottom of the crankcase where it can collect into quite a sizeable pool of oil hindering starting and is sometimes the reason why once you get a flooded engine running it will chuck out clouds of smoke from the silencers, however that oil takes some shifting to clear it out especially trying to do it just blipping the throttle parked up at home, it needs a good long run out on the road to clear it out.
Question is how do you get the engine to fire up under these circumstances - you cant beat a good bump start and once running keep it running.
If the bike isnt road legal or you are not up to it then its down to the old kickstart lever and even I've ended up exhausted at times in my efforts to get the engine to fire up, keep changing the spark plugs putting dry plugs in and kick it over, throttle hardly open at this stage, if it still doesnt fire up and not even kicking back, then put some dry plugs in, open the throttle wide and hold it open, choke off and kick the engine over repeatedly, it should start to fire up, slowly at first as it struggles but be prepared for it suddenly revving like mad to close the throttle quickly. Finally something else I do to get a reluctant engine to fire up is to heat up a pair of plugs over the gas ring, you'll need a cloth so you dont burn your fingers, quickly put them into the heads and try to start the engine as soon as possible. I've never failed to get an engine running by going through some of the above but sometimes the odd engine has been stubborn and hard work on the kickstarter.
Dont go too mad on the kickstarter kicking right through and hitting the stop which is a small alloy lug on the inside of the casing, they can break off and you'll also then end up having to strip to replace the inner gearbox housing.
Good luck.

Jess

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brenton.roy
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Postby brenton.roy » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:25 am

We have an ether based spray, affectionately called "start ya bastard" - really, we do! (or Aerostart for the more mundane).
It works wonders on hard to start motors. I assume this is available worldwide.
http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Aeroso ... MhNEXcun0o
Brenton
'51,'56 Squares, '48 VH, '27 Model C, R67/2, Mk IV Le Mans, '06 Super Duke and Ariel projects.

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Re: ARIEL LEADER ENGINE PROBLEM

Postby richard.stitson » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:11 pm

alan.bedford wrote:HELP PLEASE WITH MY ARIEL LEADER I AM GETTING A TAD FRUSTRATED AT NOT BEING ABLE TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.
BIKE STARTS FIRST OR SECOND KICK AND RUNS FINE NOT SMOKEY AND WILL CRUISE ALONG NICELY 50-55MPH.COMPRESSION IS EVEN ON BOTH CYLINDERS AROUND 80 PSI 1ST PROD RAISING TO 125+. MY DILEMMA IS THAT I CANNOT TRUST EVER GETTING HOME OR WHERE I AM GOING.....SHE RUNS FINE FOR 20 -30 MINUTES DOESN'T MISS A BEAT AND THEN WHEN CRUISING ALONG AROUND 50 MARK I NOTICE AN INCREASE IN SMOKE FROM THE EXHAUSTS -ENGINE DOESN'T MISS A BEAT ,NO MISFIRES OR THE LIKE AND THEN ENGINE CUTS DECLUTCH AND COAST TO A HALT.
ENGINE KICKS OVER FINE (NO HINT OF PARTIAL SEIZURE )RUNNING ON API GRADE TWO STROKE OIL AT ABOUT 40-1 MIX,CHECK PLUGS NORMAL COLOUR NEITHER OILED OR WET,SPARKING FINE -FUEL IN CARB WHICH FLOODS WHEN TICKLED-TRIED TO RESTART EITHER NOTHING OR A HALF HEARTED FIRE ON BOTH CYLINDERS,SMOKE FROM EXHAUST BUT NO REACTION TO THROTTLE........PUSH BIKE HOME OR TO SAFETY !!!!!!!
LEAVE FOR 20 TO 30 MINUTES REPEAT ABOVE SAME RESULTS ....FOLLOWING MORNING FIRST/SECOND KICK STARTS RUNS EXACTLY THE SAME RUNS FOR 12 MILES STOP AT FRIENDS FOR HALF HOUR RESTART ABOUT 5/6 KICKS RIDE TOWARDS HOME AND TEN MILES LATER DITTO THE DAY BEFORE........HAVE JUST GONE TO BIKE 3 DAYS LATER FIRST KICK AND SHE IS TICKING OVER NICELY NO UNDUE NOISE NO SMOKE-?
IDEAS AND SUGGESTIONS (I'VE ALREADY BOUGHT THE MATCHES)


Hi i was wondering did you ever get to sovle your problem as my arrow has similer problems.

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Postby alan.bedford » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:27 am

Hello all,

Sorry it seems that some messages I thought I had put were never sent. I am in fact away for next ten days and using another persons lap top but simple answer is yes everything got sorted out and bike has been running well ever since providing I follow a set sequence .

I will put full details on site as soon as I get back to my own computer.

AB


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