Pre-war NH?

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paul.jameson
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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby paul.jameson » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:53 pm

Hello Pete,
One of the delights of Ariels, and one of the biggest problems for restorers, is the incredible interchangeability of Ariel parts over the years. The "1947 NH" is a fine example of this. Could it be rebuilt into a prewar frame? Yes. You would need single cylinder front engine plates, but otherwise, engine and gearbox will bolt straight in, as will petrol and oil tanks, toolbox, mudguards and chainguards, forks and wheels. If you were to use a W/NG frame the chainguards would almost certainly not fit, although the upper one might.
Would the outcome be an authentic Ariel? No. To achieve that, you would need an early postwar frame, prefix AP or BP.

As others have said, the XG prefix was used from 1938 and throughout the wartime years. The frames do change to increase ground clearance but I would not like to suggest a definitive number after which the ground clearance increased. An approximate number might be ok but knowing Ariel production, the chances are very high indeed of an overlap in numbers between normal and high ground clearance frames. Admittedly, this is not an area I have studied, but if I haven't, I doubt anyone else alive today has either. And it isn't on my priority list.

If you want a kit of parts to make a prewar Ariel, or a postwar one, or a W/NG, join the Club and ask in Cheval de Fer. I suspect you would get something very good indeed for half the price of the 1947 NH at the dealer.
Paul Jameson
36 4G, 37 VH, 53 ex ISDT KHA (project), 54 KH(A), Healey 1000/4 (project)
Former Machine Registrar & Archivist, General Secretary and Single Spares Organiser (over a 25 year period).
Now Archivist once more - but not Machine Registrar.

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alan.moore
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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby alan.moore » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:09 pm

paul.jameson wrote:The frames do change to increase ground clearance but I would not like to suggest a definitive number after which the ground clearance increased. An approximate number might be ok but knowing Ariel production, the chances are very high indeed of an overlap in numbers between normal and high ground clearance frames. Admittedly, this is not an area I have studied, but if I haven't, I doubt anyone else alive today has either. And it isn't on my priority list.


Funnily enough whilst researching the WNG parts lists in order to come up with a timeline / engine no record of when certain parts changed (i.e petrol tanks, footrests, rubbers parts, mudguards etc etc) I read in a couple of places (Bacon's Ariel The PostWar Models was one of them) that immediately following the war the NG civilian model, as standard, continued to use the high ground clearance frame fitted to the WNG whilst the other models used the standard frame. The 1947/8 Singles Civi parts book does indeed list two rigid frames, one being the high ground clearance one 4950A-40 as fitted to the WNG. It also states that the longer WNG forks should be fitted with this frame and lists two sets of girders. I assume this was a way to use up stocks of WNG frames and forks. Would be interesting if anyone who has a 1946 to 1949 NG can confirm this? and if so whether the field stand lug was present

I believe the new frame type came in 1950 but there is another parts list, dated 1949, which may hold some more info about whether the high clearance frame was still being used, but I cannot locate a copy. If anyone has this parts book I would be interested in a copy.

The way to identify the high clearance frame (other than the field stand lug if the civi frames still had this fitted) is that, on the standard frame, the two rear tubes which lead from the seat tube to the rear wheel follow the line/angle of the frame top tube. On the high clearance frame these tubes have a noticeable downwards angle when viewed from the side.

0123-1947-1950-Ariel-singles-parts-book.jpg
0123-1947-1950-Ariel-singles-parts-book.jpg (20.1 KiB) Viewed 296 times


Cheers
Alan
1939 VH Redhunter;1942 RN WNG;1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1970 BSA B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single
http://cloggymoore.wix.com/triumph-pre-unit-6t

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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby john.mitchell » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:16 pm

I note this is the second current post re Ariel parts books. We have quite a few already in the documents folder on the AOMCC website
It would be really great if someone would take on the job of collating all of the missing ones and getting them copied and put up as well.
How about it?
If that is too daunting how about members owning copies which are not on the wensirte, copying them and putting them up on the site.
John Mitchell
Editor Cheval de Fer

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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby admin » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:04 pm

I can post up anything supplied, John, and we've been gradually adding over the years ..

It's certainly possible to find the gaps and to try and purchase the missing ones for scanning.
However, there is only supplier (i think) for most of the parts books and I am not comfortable with buying them with this express purpose ( I know they are out of copyright and not theirs, but it still feels wrong to take their stuff and make it available free - although only to club members)
John Nash
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webmaster@arielownersmcc.co.uk

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Vincent.vanGinneke
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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby Vincent.vanGinneke » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:45 pm

A few pics of a prewar single frame of 'normal' dimensions next to a W/NG frame.

W-NG en Standaard  (7).JPG
W-NG en Standaard  (10).JPG
W-NG en Standaard  (13).JPG
W-NG en Standaard  (16).JPG

W-NG en Standaard  (18).JPG


Difficult to get it visible on a picture, a lot of tube parts are different.
At the rear it's shorter and lower , the tubes after the mid upright centre tube slope downwards as mentioned before.
Another quick way to recon. a WNG frame is to look at the rear wheel fork ends, if pointing downwards it is a WD frame.
edit: if the field stand point is grinded off.
The short tube above the engine sits about 15mm lower on a WNG frame then on a standard frame.
It is possible to fit a 500cc engine (see Burney) but to take the rockerboxes of you have to take the engine out of the frame :lol:
But...who needs to take rockerboxes of ??

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alan.moore
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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby alan.moore » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:41 pm

Vincent: Thanks for that. Whilst I have a '39 VH and '42 WNG I have not had the opportunity to see the bare frames side by side. Very informative

John
admin wrote: It's certainly possible to find the gaps and to try and purchase the missing ones for scanning.
However, there is only supplier (i think) for most of the parts books and I am not comfortable with buying them with this express purpose ( I know they are out of copyright and not theirs, but it still feels wrong to take their stuff and make it available free - although only to club members)


I can see your point. However, as John Mitchell says if members already have the missing parts books then I think it would be OK to add them to the members only area?

I am up for scanning any as PDF's if they become available and emailing them to you. In fact i have just done a Nov 1942 WNG (not from that supplier) which we do not have in the list. I will email it to you for the members area.

Cheers
Alan
1939 VH Redhunter;1942 RN WNG;1951 Triumph 6T Thunderbird;1970 BSA B175 Bantam;1986 Yamaha SRX600 single
http://cloggymoore.wix.com/triumph-pre-unit-6t

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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby petecranwell » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:03 am

Morning. Many thanks to Alan for the simple ID info and Vincent for the photos. with this knowledge I now feel able to identity a correct frame. I've looked at a 'XG' frame that had no field stand lugs but I can now see that it is a military high clearance frame. I'll keep searching. Regards.

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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby adrian.hannam » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:40 am

Hi John N, Some time ago I offered two documents to the AOMCC via the email on the website, do you check this email? Or do you prefer the webmaster email? (Cut and paste from "building the repository" page below).

Emailing
If you have a document that you can scan for us please send your scans to the email address below.
Documents@ArielOwnersMcc.co.uk
'48 KG outfit, '51 VH, '51 4G (in bits)
Editor "The Horse's Mouth" Australia

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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby Vincent.vanGinneke » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:58 am

Found two more pictures of the frames I had in for straightening last year.
Shows the difference between a standard and WD frame at the rear more clearly.

W-NG frame.JPG
1937 Ariel frame.JPG

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Re: Pre-war NH?

Postby admin » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:44 pm

adrian.hannam wrote:Hi John N, Some time ago I offered two documents to the AOMCC via the email on the website, do you check this email? Or do you prefer the webmaster email? (Cut and paste from "building the repository" page below).

Emailing
If you have a document that you can scan for us please send your scans to the email address below.
Documents@ArielOwnersMcc.co.uk



Adrian

hmm ...it should all route to me, by default.
Please send it again - try the webmaster address .
thanks
John Nash
Administrator
webmaster@arielownersmcc.co.uk


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