Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Singles, twins and fours.
allan.walker
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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby allan.walker » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:23 am

That Guzzi brake looks great, Bruce. It'll work a lot better on the Ariel than it did on the Guzzi, I bet! (Less weight....)

How much work was involved getting it to fit the forks?

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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:11 am

david.anderson wrote: Strangley enough I have never had a problem with a grabby FWH rear brake, wet or dry and have never heard of anyone else having a grabby rear brake. David

Back in the late '60s/early '70s I had a '57 VB (in black - headlamp cowl, FW hubs, FERC and so on).

On a damp morning the rear brake would certainly grab - a light touch could lock the wheel. Fortunately the front always behaved itself.

Graham Berry bought the bike in '72 - I wonder if he found the same thing ??

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My avatar shows the late Len Rich in 1970 with the bike I now have - a 1958 Ariel VH

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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:30 am

allan.walker wrote:

I've looked at BSA/Triumph 7" and 8" brakes, John. It would seem that a pair of fork legs (or just the sliders?) with bolt-on end caps would be necessary for the spindle - or have people who have used these brakes made a spindle which passes-through, like the original Ariel one? If so, what about the torque stay?

When I was building my Square Four between '68 and '70 I wanted a larger TLS brake so went for a BSA A10 front end in the Ariel yokes.

The Ariel yokes are wider than the BSA ones and I had a local Engineering Shop turn-up a longer wheel spindle. This left the torque stop (its a lump on the fork leg) too short so a Blacksmith friend brazed an extension on it (!). I was a bit concerned about the added leverage on the fitting but I'm still here and it never failed despite some wheel-locking stops (I was 23 back then remember).

I bought a 'Pride & Clarke' TLS brake which completed the conversion.

I'm older & wiser now but it all worked very well (I used to ride it hard - the bike was only 15 years old at the time so not an 'Old Classic' as they are today, and spares were available).

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My avatar shows the late Len Rich in 1970 with the bike I now have - a 1958 Ariel VH

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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:00 am

allan.walker wrote:

I've read somewhere that an Ariel owner fitted a tls drum front wheel from an 'airhead' BMW. Does anyone have any information about this?


Dick Warne fitted a BMW 'Airhead' front wheel to his VH. He reports a great improvement over the original.

Dick's 1954 Ariel 'VH' with BMW front wheel - 20150717.jpg


Dick's 1954 Ariel 'VH' with BMW TLS front wheel & brake - 20150717.jpg



Dick also has a TLS brake on his Ariel 'HS'. I'm afraid I don't know anything about its origin.

Dick's Ariel TLS Brake on his 'HS' - 20150717.jpg


Dick's 'HS' Front hub - 20150717.jpg


Dick isn't on this Forum very often, but I can probably put you in touch if you want to discuss the conversion (If I can drag Dick away from renovating "6024 - King Edward I" down in Minehead :lol: ).

012 - Driving Wheel and Crank - 20171209.JPG


;)

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My avatar shows the late Len Rich in 1970 with the bike I now have - a 1958 Ariel VH

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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby john.mitchell » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:32 am

Like David I often found FWH brakes grabby the first time one used them on a damp day - never rear though. I have also seen both a front and rear FWH brake plate split into two. I am lucky enough to have Lew Wallwork hydraulic front brakes on both of the bikes we used for big mileages and the difference is tremendous. They never grab and do not fade even on mountains and with the brakes shoes mounted on a separate metal plate they are not going to allow the outer plate to split. Incidentally they use BMC Metro shoes.
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allan.walker
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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby allan.walker » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:08 pm

Bob.Murphy wrote:When I was building my Square Four between '68 and '70 I wanted a larger TLS brake so went for a BSA A10 front end in the Ariel yokes.

The Ariel yokes are wider than the BSA ones and I had a local Engineering Shop turn-up a longer wheel spindle. This left the torque stop (its a lump on the fork leg) too short so a Blacksmith friend brazed an extension on it (!). I was a bit concerned about the added leverage on the fitting but I'm still here and it never failed despite some wheel-locking stops (I was 23 back then remember).


That answers how to make the BSA/Triumph brake fit, thanks. (I'm assuming that the P&C conversion used BSA parts.)

I must say, however, that I prefer the look of the BMW brake. It looks like it would fit with less work than the BSA/Triumph type. It would be good to learn from Dick Warne how he went about the conversion (and also about the modified Ariel brake.)
Last edited by allan.walker on Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

allan.walker
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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby allan.walker » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:11 pm

john.mitchell wrote:..... I am lucky enough to have Lew Wallwork hydraulic front brakes on both of the bikes we used for big mileages and the difference is tremendous. They never grab and do not fade even on mountains and with the brakes shoes mounted on a separate metal plate they are not going to allow the outer plate to split. Incidentally they use BMC Metro shoes.


Am I right in thinking that this conversion is no longer available?

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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Allan,

I spoke to Dick Warne and he suggested I sent you his e-mail address; he is happy to discuss TLS brake conversions.

You have a PM.

Bob.

p.s. I have a Lester Grant Mk IV TLS brake on my 'VH' - its very good.

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My avatar shows the late Len Rich in 1970 with the bike I now have - a 1958 Ariel VH

allan.walker
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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby allan.walker » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:50 pm

That's an interesting brake.

It looks like the non-actuated end of the shoes is fixed by virtue of the semi-circular ends which rest against the 'plain' (i.e. non-lobe) part of the cams.
This seems much better than my brake, where the shoes are floating.

btw, thanks for the PM.

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Re: Twin leading shoe brake queries.

Postby david.anderson » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:42 pm

Alan, I would at least try your brake. There is nothing wrong with floating shoes. I considered a duo serve conversion of the original brake plate. the shoes in a duo serve brake are fully floating.
And now I have heard of a grabby rear FWH brake.

This is the casting that I had done for the brake plate. The boss that was cast on the front was to facilitate holding the plate in the chuck to turn the inner and was subsequently removed.
IMG_1424a.JPG

The brake plate was machined to fit a 3mm steel plate which screwed to the alloy brake plate. A precaution due to the Ariel failures.
IMG_1434a.JPG

The completed assembly. While I had intended to make a pattern for some aluminium shoes, the foundry shut down just after casting my brake plates, so I fabricated the shoes in steel. the linings are oversize and were then turned down to fit the hub. All external parts were chromed
IMG_1437a.JPG

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