VH-crank - oil supply

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Hermann.Asamer
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VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Hermann.Asamer » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:08 pm

Dear all!

I have put a prewar VH-crank into my 38 VG. After short time of the big end became noisy. I took it into pieces, the oilways inside the crank were not blocked, a new Morgo plunger pump was fitted, so this all was good.

What I detected is, that the hole in the crankpin into which the plug from the timing case meets, is bigger than in a VG-crank.
So maybe that’s the reason!, the oil might have escaped there..

My question- I have never heard about a VH-timing case with an oiling plug that has got a bigger diameter- does this exist ?

If yes, what is the outer diameter of such a plug, in order to amend mine.
Thanks in advance !

Regards

Hermann

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby pappleton » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:44 pm

Hello Hermann,
Do you mean the quill feed to the big end? I think there were 2 different sizes, changed around the year of your bike. An expert will be along shortly. Hope I understood your problem, you could post a picture would help ?

BR
Paul
Paul Appleton '53 VH plunger, '53 VHA rigid - in many boxes, '58 H.D. pan/shovel rigid

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby paul.jameson » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:48 pm

What make was the big end bearing in the VH crank? Some pattern ones were notorious for early failure.
Paul Jameson
36 4G, 37 VH, 53 ex ISDT KHA (project), 54 KH(A), Healey 1000/4 (project)
Former Machine Registrar & Archivist, General Secretary and Single Spares Organiser (over a 25 year period).
Now Archivist once more - but not Machine Registrar.

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby john.whiting » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:31 am

Panther 600s never had an oil hole or oil feed to the crankpin,I dont think the 650s have one either......they seem to survive OK.........I have a 500 JAP with the entire pin hole blocked with hard deposit,no sign of problems.......so is an oil feed needed in a roller bigend?

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby nevhunter » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:48 am

It has to go somewhere and not be blocked up completely. The Sloper BSA's have an oil supply direct through the pin but when it sludges up the big end has failed . I know of a couple.. It's a massive big unit totally adequate otherwise. Lots of total loss oil systems have no supply to the big end but neither do two strokes with a few exceptions like Levis, Velo and Suzuki.. In the case of the Suzuki the big ends don't last as long as the Yamaha of similar specs but the big end is a bit BIGGER so lasts a bit longer.. roller bearings don't need a lot of oil. The cage needs a little bit to keep it happy. I think the Panther feeds from the side rather than through the pin itself. Nev

Hermann.Asamer
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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Hermann.Asamer » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:01 am

pappleton wrote:Hello Hermann,
Do you mean the quill feed to the big end? I think there were 2 different sizes, changed around the year of your bike. An expert will be along shortly. Hope I understood your problem, you could post a picture would help ?

BR
Paul



Yes, I mean the quill of the crankshaft. The bearing type is unknown, haven’t taken the crank into pieces as I had a spare one with a nice bigend.

The oilways were free, the timing cover which has all the oilsways inside is also without any blockings and I have. Fitted a new Morgo plunger oilpump. So the only i could find as being suspicious was the gap between the filler tube and the quill of the crank, which is around one millimeter.
As I have the original VG cast iron crank as well,this has a smaller diameter, which gives a gap of approx. 0,2 mm

Regards

Hermann

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Bob.Murphy
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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:03 am

john.whiting wrote:Panther 600s never had an oil hole or oil feed to the crankpin, I don't think the 650s have one either......


On my '31 500 Panther the Bradshaw Oil Pump (strange device :? ) pumps oil from the sump at the front up to a hole in the rear of the cylinder - and that's it. No big-end feed, no rocker feed.

The oil accumulates in the crankcase where the 'scavenge' is the flywheels picking it up and flinging it over a wall into the sump 8-) .

It was the Hoffman main bearings that failed on mine (in 1954 judging from the tax disk), the big-end was still OK (but I have had the whole bottom end rebuilt by Alpha Bearings).

One day I'll have it running again.

Bob.
My avatar shows the late Len Rich in 1970 with the bike I now have - a 1958 Ariel VH

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby bevanclark » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:18 am

Hi Bob,
I've been told by some of the Panther Owners Club gurus that I could probably block off that barrel hole on my M120 without any ill-effects. One guy did it accidentally and covered 10,000 trouble free miles before he discovered it.
Always struck me as odd that my 1929 BSA has pressure feed to the roller big end, yet my 1960 Panther is just splash.
Cheers, Bevan

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby pappleton » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:53 am

Hi Hermann,
If you look at the Draganfly website, pretty sure that both parts are illustrated there. 2080-29 1929-40 and 2080-41 1941-58.
One of them is out of stock, probably the one you require! The singles spares man, Peter Kemp may have something.
The old Enfield Bullets had a similar, although screwed into the timing chest, quill arrangement. An oil seal, of sorts, was a small medicine bottle type cork centre drilled that 'sealed' it to the end of the mainshaft. I found these constantly split, whatever I did. I found that a section of neoprene tube out of tyre pump adaptor fit perfectly into the recess in the mainshaft and over the quill.

BR, Paul
Paul Appleton '53 VH plunger, '53 VHA rigid - in many boxes, '58 H.D. pan/shovel rigid

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Simon.Gardiner » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:46 pm

Hi Hermann
I'm no expert on the earlier bikes but there don't seem to have been different quills for VH/VG, just a change after 1940 for all models (as per Paul's notes).
There are several other threads about quills in the forum. None of them directly addresses your problem but there is some discussion that might be useful.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1407
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7829&start=10
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6656&p=44061
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3558&start=40

SG
'55 Huntmaster, '56 VH, ' 51 VH, '80 R100RT, '00 Sprint ST (but all those Ariel parts can only make one running bike...)


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