VH-crank - oil supply

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby john.whiting » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:17 pm

I would think once the oil was deposited half way along a rotating shaft,centrifugal force would take over and draw the oil outwards to the trap and crankpin......there is no resistance to flow with a roller bigend......Early thirties Matchless motors had drillings thru the crankpin,and oil was supposed to flow through the d/s flywheel to the mainshaft,which had loose caged rollers.....Unfortunately the flow didnt get past the crankpin,again due to centrifugal force.

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:01 pm

bevanclark wrote:I've been told by some of the Panther Owners Club gurus that I could probably block off that barrel hole on my M120 without any ill-effects.


You have a rocker oil feed - so oil will be circulating, dropping into the timing chest and then overflowing into the crankcase. Once the crank is splashing it about the feed to the rear of the cylinder wall becomes a bit redundant. :D .

Sorry - getting 'Off Topic' again :oops: .

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Hermann.Asamer » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:31 am

Simon.Gardiner wrote:Hi Hermann
I'm no expert on the earlier bikes but there don't seem to have been different quills for VH/VG, just a change after 1940 for all models (as per Paul's notes).
There are several other threads about quills in the forum. None of them directly addresses your problem but there is some discussion that might be useful.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1407
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7829&start=10
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6656&p=44061
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3558&start=40

SG



Thanks for the links and all the answers in general!

It less me to the conclusion that the smaller diameter of the quill might not have been the reason for my Bigend to fail so quick.

I have checked the oilways, everything fine, also the timing case with all its oilways - also fine.

As I am currently I the reassembling process I will then check wether the pump really delivers ( not likely as it’s new, but needs to be checked.

As long as there is oilfeed from the pump and the oilways being free it shall work..
Or is there anything else I could check?

I‘ll keep you guys updated on this..

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby nevhunter » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:50 am

Do you have the 38 cam cover ? If so the original adjustable oiler must be fitted to that case. you can't just block the exterior hole or oil just escapes out into the cam area. You would show no oil pressure either.
The quill is not likely to be any problem. It doesn't rely on it being a good fit. In the flywheel oilway there's a complex small pipe arrangement that's not in the later flywheels and I always remove it. It's not needed. The sludge still ends up where you want it to. In the removable hollow bolt. If you remove it(the oilway sludge trap) you will be able to see it if it's there. You should also check that oil is getting through to the pin itself If the locating pin is missing the oilways may not be in alignment and perhaps no oil to your crankpin. for that reason. Nev

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby john.whiting » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:22 am

Dont rule out a poor quality bearing...........no doubt youve heard the old story how AJS was trying to save a few pennies on bigends with a cheap supplier,and all the units failed,forcing the Stevens to declare insolvency,and sell the brand to Matchless.

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Hermann.Asamer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:18 pm

nevhunter wrote:Do you have the 38 cam cover ? If so the original adjustable oiler must be fitted to that case. you can't just block the exterior hole or oil just escapes out into the cam area. You would show no oil pressure either.
The quill is not likely to be any problem. It doesn't rely on it being a good fit. In the flywheel oilway there's a complex small pipe arrangement that's not in the later flywheels and I always remove it. It's not needed. The sludge still ends up where you want it to. In the removable hollow bolt. If you remove it(the oilway sludge trap) you will be able to see it if it's there. You should also check that oil is getting through to the pin itself If the locating pin is missing the oilways may not be in alignment and perhaps no oil to your crankpin. for that reason. Nev


I have the 38 cover with the separate adjustable Oiler. The thing is, I get some oil with the Morgo up to the rocker, but the pressure gauge shows no reading ( the gauge works, as i tested it with compressed air).

Could the Morgo seal be the issue ? I have assembled it the way it is shown on the photo when it is put on the timing cover.

I have cleaned the oilways inside the cover, all was free and clean..




The return works fine, so oil is pumped back to the tank
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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby alan.moore » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:02 pm

Hermann,
As you have an early timing case the ports behind the pump are different to the later type which has a milled slot between the feed port and the port leading to the quill/crankshaft. The elongated slot in the gasket shown in the your picture is for the later timing case. If your case looks like the early type one below you need the gasket which has just a round hole on that location. The slot will allow oil to flow directly from the pump to the quill without going through the pressure regulator. This will greatly reduce the pressure of oil to the gauge and rockers.

IMG_0097a.JPG
Early timing case
IMG_0097a.JPG (98.55 KiB) Viewed 430 times


IMG_0096b.JPG
Late timing case
IMG_0096b.JPG (84.7 KiB) Viewed 430 times


This previous post may be of intrest viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3917&start=10&hilit=timing+case
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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby Hermann.Asamer » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:28 pm

alan.moore wrote:Hermann,
As you have an early timing case the ports behind the pump are different to the later type which has a milled slot between the feed port and the port leading to the quill/crankshaft. The elongated slot in the gasket shown in the your picture is for the later timing case. If your case looks like the early type one below you need the gasket which has just a round hole on that location. The slot will allow oil to flow directly from the pump to the quill without going through the pressure regulator. This will greatly reduce the pressure of oil to the gauge and rockers.

IMG_0097a.JPG


IMG_0096b.JPG


This previous post may be of intrest viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3917&start=10&hilit=timing+case
cheers
Alan


Dear Alan !

Thanks for the tip, that sounds logic and I‘ve done it definitely wrong.
Morgo says nothing about this on their page or fitting instructions - there should be either a limit to years and models or an alternative gasket !

First thing I try tomorrow is to change the gasket to the old one, hope that then the pressure comes up!

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby john.whiting » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:39 am

it should be noted that even with the wrong gasket ,and no pressure on the gauge,there is still full oil supply to the crank,and the rockers seem too get sufficient oil too.......there is enough resistance in the passages to lift oil to the top end...........if you doubt this,look at the later system,where a bypass from the tank return oils the rockers.Nothing there to pressurize the feed ,and IMHO crankcase depression must pull oil into the top end.....In the OHV JAP engines ,this was always used to oil the top end,as the Pilgrim pump only fed the bigend directly.

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Re: VH-crank - oil supply

Postby nevhunter » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:18 am

The main thing with the pre 40 ? cover is to have the screwed in adjustable fitting in place. If it's not fitted as a complete unit the oil just goes ported into the timing case so no direct oil to the big end and no pressure to push it to the rockers or oil gauge. The rocker supply normally has it's own flow adjuster for the operator to cut it down if needed. The big end needs no pressure really just assurance of a flow. Later oil feeds have a secondary ball valve for both the supply and the scavenge. This is usually fitted to the" later " 50's engines and it you want the ultimate, that's the way I'd go. The later gasket works OK there. You can get the rocker oil from the return flow and i'd put a light sprung ball in there too after the tapping to the rockers. I wouldn't UP the oil flow much as most bikes have an over oiling problem with them fitted. The 49 on pump is ideal for most 500 work with a "moderate " oil ring fitted. Nev


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