Is this within standard Ariel operating parameters

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john.nash
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Is this within standard Ariel operating parameters

Postby john.nash » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:18 pm



Ariel VH500 1954 and sidecar

This was making a knocking noise with a new JP piston.
I stripped it back to the crank, last year, to sort it but didn't
While I was there I changed the crankcase/bearings (to the right ones for the alloy engine) . Did not cure the noise.

Recently, I put in a good used original hepolite piston and new rings (gapped correctly) and it now sounds like this..... ????
The rocker gaps seem ok, the chains are all about right (not too loose and not too tight).

Is this an ariel noise that is within "acceptable parameters" .. my other ones are rattly but I don't have an alloy one to compare too.... otherwise I am stripping it back and looking for a loose gudgeon circlip (had one of those and it didn't sound like this), broken ring or something else ... *sigh*

The video makes it sound worse than it is .... to me it's like something is jangling about ... never had a broken ring but I'd expect some smoke but there is none ...
I am too scared to take it out .. I'll try and convince someone local to come and listen before I crack it open AGAIN ....

This one sounds as bad, mind:

John "Josh" Nash
webmaster@arielownersmcc.co.uk
AOMCC No.4119
2009 royal Enfield,1978 t140 bonneville, '67 CJ750, 196-ish Ural M62 outfit, 1960 k750, ''51 kH500, ''49 soon to be Ariel bobber, 47 VH twinport, '44 Ariel WNG, '43 Ariel WNG, ' and piles of rusty scrap ....

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Steven.Carter
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Postby Steven.Carter » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:38 pm

Can I hear piston slap a bit? My wng seems a little noisy like your bike but seems to go alright but both my VH's sound as sweet as a nut.

steve

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Re: Is this within standard Ariel operating parameters

Postby will.wallace » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:23 pm

I've got a Guzzi that sounds like that :D ( + booming exhaust + induction noise )

On the Guzzi it's mainly valve train noise, exarcabated by the skimpy alloy covers poking out into the breeze.

Have you tried nipping the valve clearances up really tight, just to see if that knocks the noise down? It would be one way of eliminating a possible issue....

I seem to recall that Mr Waller reccomends running the VH and NH at nil valve clearance.

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Postby nevhunter » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:16 am

ARIEL singles do not have to be rattly but a bit of piston slap when cold is fairly normal for a motor that runs hard or with a chair. It should disappear when hot, and is responsive to load.
Broken rings (at least initially) don't make noise.
Your noise could be from flats worn on the camshaft, end float of rockers/camshaf/camfollowers, small end play, conrod not true or centred correctly, Exhaust valve lifter incorrectly aligned with rocker, bent pushrod, camshaft inner bearing moving inwards (nothing holds it there but the interference fit) Connecting rod contacting cylinder spigot (if cylinder has been sleeved and a relief not filed.
Alloy heads exaggerate any noise that is in that area. Does either valve touch the piston? This can happen if the relief is not the right size or the engine incorrectly timed.
A section of broom handle held against parts of the engine and your ear will enable the noise to be heard and isolated Nev

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Postby brenton.roy » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:31 am

Hi John, My Guzzi sounds like Will's.. Fixed it with a straight through exhaust.
Your motor is a little rattly, but not that bad. It doesn't have that new whir that's all. Nothing sounds terminal, but these noises can really get to you.
What I can't hear is piston slap, a big end noise or small end double rattle.
Mostly it sounds like a motor that is used (that would be a good thing?)

Some things to take into consideration;
Sidecars amplify noise (as do microphones).
The condition of the camshaft bush, cam and lifter profiles (smooth and new?) rocker shafts, valve guides etc. Every little bit of wear here and there adds up.
It would be worth over tightening the tappets as per Will and Stephen's advice as an experiment.
Have you checked the timing chain adjustment?
Ally heads do make more noise.
Next time the head is off, check for witness marks on the piston. Just touching does sound tappety. It would get worse with revs so you would really notice it when you rev it at idle.

I can see Nev's reply as I write this. I'd go with the Gizzi fix and ride it.
Brenton
'51,'56 Squares, '48 VH, '27 Model C, R67/2, Mk IV Le Mans, '06 Super Duke and Ariel projects.

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Re: Is this within standard Ariel operating parameters

Postby adrie.degraaff » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:04 am

I think the noise of the first are the pushrods and rockers.
The second is just way to rich.
Both ad noise becouse there is no air filter + rubber.

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john.nash
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Re: Is this within standard Ariel operating parameters

Postby john.nash » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:52 am

Thanks all.

To confirm, all I did was to change the piston (to a used one) and re-ring it.
I didn't mess with the cam nor anything else on the bottom end.

Before I did this, I had what could be best explained as a loud knock/whir under load/at revs; I stripped the engine to the crank to try and find the cause of that.
I have not road tested, but that appears to have gone (so I will blame the JP piston).

However, in it's stead is an engine that sounds alot more noisey
I cannot remember the piston clearance, as I did this a fair few weeks ago (I was waiting for the seat to come back recovered), but it was ok along with the little end fit.

I will check the rocker clearances again and then take to the road.
I suspect it won't sound half as bad wound up along the road ....
John "Josh" Nash
webmaster@arielownersmcc.co.uk
AOMCC No.4119
2009 royal Enfield,1978 t140 bonneville, '67 CJ750, 196-ish Ural M62 outfit, 1960 k750, ''51 kH500, ''49 soon to be Ariel bobber, 47 VH twinport, '44 Ariel WNG, '43 Ariel WNG, ' and piles of rusty scrap ....

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Re: Is this within standard Ariel operating parameters

Postby david.anderson » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:51 am

John
Ariel singles are always a bit rattly. While it could be loose tapets, in my experience most rattles come from a loose little end. On each occasion that the rattles in my bike seemed excessive I have replaced the little end bush and fitted the new one (with an adjustable reamer to a close tolerance) after which most of the rattles have gone. The little end does not have to be excessivley loose to rattle.
David

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brenton.roy
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Postby brenton.roy » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:31 pm

I've not heard of rattly little ends, but it certainly makes sense.
Adrie, what part of the sound is the "too rich" bit? I'm interested in how you can hear that.
In any direction, it sounds like there's nothing that will stop you enjoying the bike John.
Brenton
'51,'56 Squares, '48 VH, '27 Model C, R67/2, Mk IV Le Mans, '06 Super Duke and Ariel projects.

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Postby nevhunter » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:12 pm

It is too rich because it 8 strokes. The timing is questionable because the engine is not lively and responsive. The proper clearance for the small end is quite small. With a good finish perhaps around 3/4 thou is the go. Nev


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