Building up a shaft

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nevhunter
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby nevhunter » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:42 am

The biggest issue that I've noticed over the years is simply over revving the old stuff. If you just point out that there's no torque left and make it pull in a higher gear as soon as it will, is the go, they get it. All my male kids(3) have raced since they could get on a bike, but when they get on an old one they ride it carefully always well within it's limits. There's a few the "older I get, the faster I went " types who could learn from them, It shows on which bikes are being worked on constantly and which bikes do the whole multiple day runs without being touched. You don't have to crawl along, work it but don't thrash it. (and don't ride with things like YAMAHA R1's etc) Horses for Courses. Nev

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simon.holyfield
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby simon.holyfield » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:08 am

I guess it is down to what people are used to. This CX I have is a bit more powerful than my SQ4 and a lot faster, but it's just down to the engine speed it will sustain. The torque appears to be much the same and of course the SQ4 is much more relaxing to ride.

The CX is not a keeper - I think it will go when the FH is finished. I like the low revving, torquey bikes, preferably with a low seat to suit my short legs!
cheers

Simes

'51 Square Four,
'58 Huntmaster,
'42 W/NG,
'30 Model A
http://ariel-square-four.blogspot.com

jj.palmer
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby jj.palmer » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:54 am

A splined fitting on a kick start, in my opinion, would be best as it gives adjustment to suit the riders height, weight etc..
The problem with welding and then machining without any post weld heat treatment is that the welded material often becomes harder and is therefore more difficult to machine particularly on a light duty lathe such as a mini lathe.
Another alternative method is to reduce the diameter of the shaft where it was splined, make a seperate new splined bush and then fit the bush to the reduced diameter and weld in place ie no machining of welded material.

Hope this helps,
John P.

nevhunter
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby nevhunter » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:33 pm

Rudge uses tapered splines or is it splined tapers. Either way it's much better than clamping a spline which just doesn't work (after a short while). Nev

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simon.holyfield
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby simon.holyfield » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:48 pm

jj.palmer wrote:A splined fitting on a kick start, in my opinion, would be best as it gives adjustment to suit the riders height, weight etc..
The problem with welding and then machining without any post weld heat treatment is that the welded material often becomes harder and is therefore more difficult to machine particularly on a light duty lathe such as a mini lathe.
Another alternative method is to reduce the diameter of the shaft where it was splined, make a seperate new splined bush and then fit the bush to the reduced diameter and weld in place ie no machining of welded material.

Hope this helps,
John P.


I've certainly seen hard spots after welding John. I guess there's no reason I shouldn't PWHT - heat the affected area and cool as slowly as possible?

I could also spline a sleeve and braze it in place I guess. If I weld a sleeve, I would really have to weld both ends and there is not a lot of room at the inboard end...
cheers

Simes

'51 Square Four,
'58 Huntmaster,
'42 W/NG,
'30 Model A
http://ariel-square-four.blogspot.com

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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby rick king » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:41 pm

Yes I was wondering if you could replace the entire shaft.
But I would attempt to build it up and respline it first.

jj.palmer
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby jj.palmer » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:41 pm

Brazing a splined bush on sounds good, even go for the "belt and braces" by also pinning it as mentioned by John W. earlier in the conversation.

You are now spoilt for choice :D.

John P.

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simon.holyfield
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby simon.holyfield » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:38 am

jj.palmer wrote:Brazing a splined bush on sounds good, even go for the "belt and braces" by also pinning it as mentioned by John W. earlier in the conversation.

You are now spoilt for choice :D.

John P.


I'm quite liking that approach. I can make the splined sleeve separately and remake it if I mess it up. I'll have to change the annular groove that serves to provide clearance for the clamp bolt to a single groove on one side (because an annular groove would cut through the sleeve) , which renders the splines a bit pointless. I'm wondering if I can loctite the sleeve in place, but I will probably braze it.

As you say, spoiled for choice - I'm glad I asked, there's been lots of ideas I hadn't thought of!
cheers

Simes

'51 Square Four,
'58 Huntmaster,
'42 W/NG,
'30 Model A
http://ariel-square-four.blogspot.com

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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby jj.palmer » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:30 am

Brazing plus 2 drive fit pins diametrically opposite to one another, say 3 mm diameter and half the length of the bush, I think would be ok, the pins are to take the rotary force, also, a flat on the pinch bolt to clear the splines instead of a groove.

When cutting the splines did you use the carriage rack and pinion to apply the cutting force, you have set me thinking whether the cutting force could be applied thru' a leverage mechanism similar to that on a manually operated shaping machine, have got to find something to do in this lockdown.

John P.

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simon.holyfield
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Re: Building up a shaft

Postby simon.holyfield » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:34 pm

I know this is very non-Ariel, but I thought it might amuse you all. I am just recovering my sense of humour.

I built the shaft up using MIG, and cut the splines using a 'shaping machine' technique on the lathe. All well and good.

IMG_20200424_144304.jpg


Having trouble with the fit near the end, I re-measured the lever:

IMG_20200418_131421.jpg


By the way, how many splines do you think it has? I cut 30 on the male...

Now, I have a kickstart shaft from a similar engine which is longer and has a bigger quadrant. Finding this in a spares box today I found it fits this QR50 lever perfectly, which left me in a quandary as to why my recut shaft didn't fit, as they seemed identical.

So, how many splines do you think Mr. Honda puts on his kickstart shaft? 30? 32? Some nice round number?

No. It is 31. Best get the welder out again... Its not like I'm short of time!
cheers

Simes

'51 Square Four,
'58 Huntmaster,
'42 W/NG,
'30 Model A
http://ariel-square-four.blogspot.com


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