early bikes

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leon.mitchell
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Re: early bikes

Postby leon.mitchell » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:25 am

Interesting - perhaps the CC was engraved by hand? I doubt it could be milled because the ends of the lines forming the Cs are square. It would be interesting to see more plates.

"On this topic I already shown that the Beaulieu engine is machined to be in front of the axle." I guess I don't understand this comment. The Ariel tricycle in the Beaulieu museum has an Ariel motor behind the rear axle, and to do this, the drive must come from the side of the motor opposite the exhaust pipe - i.e. the opposite side to the later Ariel trikes (engine in front of axle). Can you tell me which post you're referring to? I don't understand what you mean by "machined to be in front of the axle".

Re the motorcycle with the Ariel tricycle engine. There are two photos of this bike at the Motoring Picture Library at Beaulieu:
http://www.motoringpicturelibrary.com/d ... 96x569.jpg and
http://www.motoringpicturelibrary.com/d ... 96x300.jpg

The motor in this bike is similar (but not identical) to the Beaulieu Museum tricycle: it has the drive from the "wrong" side, but it has the contact breaker in the same position as your in-front-of-the-axle engine. I'd guess that this bike has been built at a later date using a tricycle motor. The frame parts are possibly Chater Lea rather than Ariel - at least the front fork is Chater Lea style rather than Components style. From the style, I'd guess a build date of 1904-5. Note the huge (tricycle size!) ignition coil on the seat tube of the frame.

I don't think I'm testing all the proof you are bringing in - rather I'm trying to understand whether the tricycle that arrived here in March 1898 (brought in by the Ariel/Dunlop agent, and called an Ariel (former Dunlop) in the period press reports) was in fact an Ariel. I have shown you a photo, from a 1909 Australian magazine, where the machine is called an Ariel by the man who rode it in 1898. I've yet to see even one dot of proof that Ariel built an "engine in front of the axle" tricycle by this date. In fact from the patent record, British Show reports in Newspapers etc. it seems very unlikely.

"The photo's in the library on this site are of the first Dunlop-CC tricycle, try to shoot a hole in that." Sorry I can't find where it says that - can you point me to it? As I've commented before, there is no date on this brochure, so it may be the first brochure for this type of machine, but from the patent etc. I suspect it must have been printed in the last quarter of 1898.

Now my time line (which I'm sticking to as it makes sense to me, if not to you!) would suggest that prototypes of the "CC de Dion" engined Ariel tricycle with the engine in front of the axle would not have appeared until well in to 1898 - probably June or so (the patent was filed in September). You seem convinced that your engine dates to some time before August 1897. The Australian Ariel tricycle (de Dion pattern, with de Dion motor) must have been built at the latest in January 1898. Let me issue a challenge: can anyone provide PROOF (not captions in 1950s books!) that Ariel built a tricycle with their own motor in front of the axle before August 1898 (12 months after the date Adrie claims for his motor?

Cheers

Leon

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adrie.degraaff
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Re: early bikes

Postby adrie.degraaff » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:44 pm

O.K., all Ariel folders - modelbooks are made the year before to give to buyers and press in September - December, there is no use in printing a 1898 folder in May 1898.

On that front page of the 1898 folder is the year printed with that tricycle photo's and the bicycles of that year including the big tandems, I was hoping that the club could show the front page with the year aswel.

You have send in a photo of the restored Beaulieu tricycle (the Australian model) with a strengtening rib machined away for the drive to be on the left side, so it's a in front of axel engine with the later aluminium crankcase.

The motorbicycle with tricycle engine you just send in has all strengtning ribs complete (not machined for a drive gear).

As far as I know there is no folder or advertising of the Australian model but I agree that it's made in December 1897.
Attachments
1899 folder 001.JPG
1899 folder 004.JPG
Last edited by adrie.degraaff on Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

leon.mitchell
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Re: early bikes

Postby leon.mitchell » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:00 am

Thanks to a helpful member of the Beaulieu staff, I can report that their Ariel tricycle (Components engine positioned behind the axle) has a license plate the same as Adrie's, but stamped 19, rather than Adrie's 32. The motor is stamped (faintly) 131 DD on the opposite side.

If Adrie's engine is from an early motor-in-front-of-the-axle machine, we could probably guess that fewer than 30 behind-the-axle machines were produced. (It's not clear whether this means 30 CC-engined machines, or 30 DDB + CC machines.)

I don't suppose anyone knows the license plate numbers (or stamped engine numbers) on the engines of the tricycle and quad at Wroughton (see Tony's post way back on page 2 of this thread)? Or on other Cycle Components tricycle motors?

The license plate number on the Beaulieu Ariel fits in well with my proposed timeline:

Late 1897 - "Ariel" tricycle is essentially a de Dion Bouton tricycle, motor behind the axle. (Like the machine landed in Australia in March 1898.) Probably used a genuine de Dion engine, even if the tricycle was built under license in the UK. Was the machine built by Cycle Components Co??? At this stage there's not much to suggest who actually produced it, although Beeston and others were probably producing DDB-like tricycle under license at the time.

Mid 1898 - Ariel tricycle is like the Beaulieu machine - Cycle Components Co. motor and cycle parts, with motor behind the rear axle. (sample license plate 19)

Late 1898 - first Ariel tricycle with motor in front of the rear axle (Patent describing this configuration was lodged in September 1898) (sample license plate 32)

Cheers

Leon

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adrie.degraaff
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Re: early bikes

Postby adrie.degraaff » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:26 am

Thank you Leon, this is very good news, but only adds up if the DD engine of Beaulieu was distroyed and the brass plate nailed to a later aluminium CC crankcase.

Maybe my engine got his plate much later.

That still makes my engine nr.4 of theire own.

Or do you see that differend?.

Now I have to go to Beaulieu to see the 2mm high engine nr.

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adrie.degraaff
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Re: early bikes

Postby adrie.degraaff » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:54 am

Leons timeline dusn't ad up, so I went back to my old timeline and re aranged the whole topic .

leon.mitchell
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Re: early bikes

Postby leon.mitchell » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:31 pm

Sorry you don't agree with my timeline. I'm just a old-fashioned guy who likes a story to be supported by evidence rather than fancy.

***** Please note that Adrie has "rearranged the whole topic" and edited many/most of his posts in the discussion above - note the Oct 25-27 edit dates for posts up to 2 months old. I won't add further to the discussion here; in fact it's not much of a discussion if someone goes back and changes one side of the conversation! I'm very pleased and excited with the work I have done on early Ariel Tricycles, and I feel I have added something quite significant to early Ariel history. I'll write an article and send it to the editor of your club magazine, who can publish it if it is of any interest to members. ******

Cheers

Leon

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adrie.degraaff
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Re: early bikes

Postby adrie.degraaff » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:44 am

I am sorry Leon it has to end like this but we both have learned a lot from this topic and that is the main thing.

The reason I have altered is that I was on vacation and had no access to my material.

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Postby admin » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:49 pm

<too much re-editing - confusing -topic locked >
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