Looking after paint

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Leejm
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Looking after paint

Postby Leejm » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:45 pm

I thought it would be of interest to people to start a thread on looking after your paint.
Old or new cellulose paint needs careful selection of products to protect it from damage.
T-cut has been about for ever, but do not use it! It has ammonia in it and will soften and damage cellulose, and so will silicone in waxes.
Finding any wax without silicone is getting hard to find.
Harly wax is one that is a pure wax so is safe too use.
Another old favourite is turtle wax. Do not use it! It has silicone in it and will soften and damage cellulose. But do not wax new paint for at least six months after it was applied. If you do it will stop the paint from fully hardening. if your paint is dull a cutting compound is used too bring back the shine before a wax.
A Polish can be used on new paint, a Polish is just a very light cutting compound so is safe on new paint. Be beware some do have silicone in them.
If anyone else has ideas or know of good safe products feel free to chine in with theses.
1948 NH, BSA D10 SPORTS. 1953 VHA (project)

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paul.jameson
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Re: Looking after paint

Postby paul.jameson » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:39 pm

What an interesting post! My approach to cellulose for years has been to cut it back with 1600 or 2400 grit paper a week or two after spraying and then polish up using T-Cut, before finally applying Turtle Wax. I usually find that after perhaps 6 months or a year a slight "orange peel" effect shows so I repeat the process. Subsequently, it is Turtle Wax alone, usually applied after each time I wash the bike. Some parts treated this way have lasted for 25 years and still come up looking absolutely great. Other parts have needed to be resprayed from time to time. My experience seems to be that if I can get the paintwork looking good then leave it alone (apart from some Turtle Wax), all seems to be well. But the T-Cut definitely softens cellulose paint although it does seem to dry out later. I have often thought of changing from Turtle Wax but have stuck with it because of the good results I have had. I find that modern fuels will attack cellulose around the filler cap but that their effect lessens in time and the tank panel on my RH500 (painted in Nov 1990) seems completely impervious to them.

On the other hand, Madam's 1927 Standard is painted with I don't know what. Washed down and with a coat of Turtle Wax it looks good, but there develops something like partially spherical bumps maybe 2mm diameter which are only visible on close examination. Washed down and retreated with Turtle Wax next time round they disappear for a while, then come back. I have put this down to me using a different wax from the previous owner (although rumours abound that he was, shall we say, economical with his use of any polish).

So using the wrong things with my spraying seems to have done me little harm, but it has on Madam's car. Please don't mention this to her!
Paul Jameson
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Re: Looking after paint

Postby robjameson » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:02 pm

I recently swapped from t-cut to G3, because using G3 at work, I was impressed with the results. The result on cellulose paint, however, is that I find it next to useless, and had to buy more t-cut!

I have been tending to use 'mer' as polish, which works very nicely.

In all fairness, my bike only gets cleaned once or twice per year, and the paintwork could be a lot better anyway!
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Leejm
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Re: Looking after paint

Postby Leejm » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:17 am

I will only use g3, then after I use a Polish. And you can shave your face in the paint work. By the way silicones are bad for all paint work not just cellulose. If a product say on it workshop safe, You know it's silicone free. If a product softens your paint it will leave it open for damage, so it best avoided by using safe products.
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Re: Looking after paint

Postby david.anderson » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:58 am

While the discussion here is so far relating to cellulose paint, from what I understand a cellulose paint is generally a nitrocellulose lacquer (but also includes acrylic lacquers). A lacquer dries by evaporation of the thinners whereas a paint dries by oxidation and polymerisation. A lacquer can be reactivated with the thinners. Nitro cellulose lacquers, although once common, are not used in the automotive industry in Australia, although they are still used in furniture manufacture. I cannot find any Australian paint company that lists a nitrocellulose lacquer automotive paint. Duco, (a Dupont patent name nitrocellulose lacquer) which was manufactured in Australia by Dulux was the most popular car paint of the 1960s but is no longer available.
Nitrocellulose lacquers were superseded by acrylic lacquers, which are harder and more durable. An acrylic lacquer is still a cellulose lacquer. It has been mentioned that silicone waxes should be avoided on cellulose paints, which is something that I have not heard before. Silicone wax was commonly used on nitro cellulose lacquer and acrylic lacquers. Silicone waxes can make recoating of acrylic lacquer difficult but it was found that if a few drops of silicone were mixed into the paint, any subsequent repair/respray was not a problem. The addition of the silicone drops also resulted in a better shine after buffing, and silicone waxes give longer protection. The use of silicone drops in paint has faded out with the use of 2 pack paints by the auto refinishing industry. While I have not used acrylics lacquers for years I have just found my silicon drops. The instructions are 2 drops per litre of paint or if there is any cratering with a refinish repair then an extra 2 drops of silicone ie 4 is recommended. The instructions also state that silicone drops may be added to 2 pack paints but a trial should be run.
It was and still is common practice here for a spraypainter or car detailer, after an initial buff with buffing compound to then use cornflour on the buff, which gives a very high gloss. Then to finish an aerosol silicone spray is often used.
David

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Re: Looking after paint

Postby Leejm » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:08 pm

My local paint supply specialist who I used for many years recommend silicone free products, and theses guys know paints! They still do cellulose by the way David, I got my vha paint in cellulose from the Same place. I have only used silicone free products for a good while, I have no problems with getting a good shine and no problems with paint softening or strange marks marks appearing. I have no doubt there must be something in it.
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Re: Looking after paint

Postby david.anderson » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:42 am

Lee
When you say they still do cellulose paints are you referring to nitrocellulose or acrylic lacquers or is there another cellulose based lacquer that I am unaware of. For silicone polish to be unsuitable there has to be something different about your paints.
Today I phoned Protec paints (I normally use Australian made Protec 2k paints) and asked about silicone based polishes and whether they could be used on acrylic lacquers (cellulose). I was advised that they actually recommend silicone based products on properly cured paint and I was referred to their data sheets. In the data sheet it states “Do not use wax or silicone based polishes on acrylic lacquer less than 30 days old”
http://www.protec.com.au/images/uploads ... -06-16.pdf
The photo below shows the silicone drops that I used to add to the paint when I used acrylic lacquers.
David

DSCN1274.JPG

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Re: Looking after paint

Postby robjameson » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:41 pm

Lee, I'm interested in how best to use the G3, as I still have a full bottle of it left, and it isn't cheap! At work we use it with water and a mop, but I would expect that to be too harsh on cellulose, so I have only tried using it by hand and not got on with it at all.

How do you use it?
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Re: Looking after paint

Postby tonyh » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:44 pm

I had my VH powder coated in the late 1970's and only clean it now and then and it only gets polished about every 2 or 3 years but still comes up very well, or do I have very low standards.

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Re: Looking after paint

Postby Brian.Fosh » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Hi folks

T-Cut and its derivative coarser "rubbing/cutting compound" was the mainstay of the panel-beating and respray for decades. Bsa introduced cellulose paint circa 1930 and is referenced in their adverts of the day.

I worked for a well known optical/camera manufacturer who mixed their own T-Cut equivalent, using cerium oxide powder and glycerine to save the cost of commercial compounds like T'cut. These can be bought on ebay.

Because T-Cut has no silicone's, panels can be safely painted after use. e.g, if a scratch didn't polish out with rubbing compound in the workshop, it would be filled with a cellulose putty, "stopper", rubbed down with wet-n-dry then over sprayed and re polished. Cellulose stopper tends to shrink so was only ever fit for the lightest of scratches else a witness would reappear some weeks after leaving the workshop in otherwise pristine condition.

I gained my experience through the seventies as a teenager at my grandfathers car repair business.

It was typical to spray a final coat of thinners rich cellulose paint around 20 minutes after a top coat, letting the pot drop to say 1/3rd full and then top up with thinners . This helped minimise the orange peel by using a raised airline pressure and hence finer spray.. before power-polishing with T-Cut the next day.



Brian


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