Identification sought

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john.bryant
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Identification sought

Postby john.bryant » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:52 pm

Hey guys. I know I have an early telescopic fork front wheel
here
IMG_0077.JPG

so what do I have here
IMG_0076.JPG

Thanks John

david.anderson
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Re: Identification sought

Postby david.anderson » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:45 pm

that is the even earlier telescopic front wheel hub that was used in 46 - 47. The hub in the top photo was used from 48 - 55
the 46 wheel hub is probably rarer in the UK than the colonies due to the govt policy of export or decline, which meant that most Ariels early post war went to the export market
David

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paul.jameson
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Re: Identification sought

Postby paul.jameson » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:45 pm

Do not use the 1946-47 hub on a sidecar machine. They are fine solo, but the 1948-55 hub was produced to overcome the deficiencies of the 1946-47 hub when used with a sidecar, or so I have been reliably informed.
Paul Jameson
36 4G, 37 VH, 53 ex ISDT KHA (project), 54 KH(A), 54 4G Mk IV (project), Healey 1000/4 (project)
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Re: Identification sought

Postby Pete.Silson » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:54 am

Hi Paul,

Do you know what the issues were with the earlier hub? I only ask because I am presently putting together a plunger frame/tele fork 4G for use with a sidecar and it would be useful to identify any issues at an early stage. On the same lines are there any pros and cons to using different wheel sizes with a sidecar outfit? I was looking at one the other day which had a 20" front wheel and since I will need to rebuild my wheels I may as well use a size best suited to a sidecar.

Pete

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paul.jameson
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Re: Identification sought

Postby paul.jameson » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:28 pm

I will ask my informant when I speak to him what the problems were. He is the only person I have met who has provided an explanation for the change in hub design.

If you are going to use the bike only with a sidecar, then go for a 19inch front wheel so that you can use a sidecar triple duty front tyre. These are much the best option for the front wheel on a sidecar but absolutely lethal if you try riding solo with one on the front, because of their square shape. I am assuming here that these tyres are still available despite the diminishing number of sidecars on the road so it would be as well to check availability.

20 inch, as far as I know, means skidmasters or nothing so I would still go 19 inch so that you can fit a decent (Avon AM26) front tyre for solo use.
Paul Jameson
36 4G, 37 VH, 53 ex ISDT KHA (project), 54 KH(A), 54 4G Mk IV (project), Healey 1000/4 (project)
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Re: Identification sought

Postby david.anderson » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:21 am

Bummer. I purchased a 46 front wheel that I intended to use as a braked sidecar wheel on my VB sidecar project. If there is a problem with them on the front wheel I guess there is bound to be a problem as a sidecar wheel. Looks like I need a different wheel.
David

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paul.jameson
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Re: Identification sought

Postby paul.jameson » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:13 pm

I have consulted my informant on the shortcomings of the early telescopic front hub for sidecar use. He is probably the longest serving member of the AOMCC, having joined in 1952 or 53 and been a member ever since. Now in his mid 80s, his mind is a sharp as a razor and his record keeping on his bikes makes me positively ashamed of mine. His collection of Ariels is both interesting and extensive and his knowledge of Ariels is phenomenal. He does not have a computer and wishes to stay out of the limelight.

Anyway, to the problem. If you look at John Bryant's two photos at the top of this thread you will see that the early hub has an extra cooling ring before we get to the spoke ring on the brake drum side. The spoke ring itself on the brake drum side is bent backwards away from the drum. The effect of these two factors is to move the spoke heads on the brake drum side a considerable distance towards the centre line of the wheel itself. The net result is that the brake drum side spokes are much more vertical and so are unable to take as great horizontal loads as spokes which are more inclined, as they are on the later hub. So when you take a left hand bend at speed on your sidecar outfit with the early type hub the brake drum side spokes cannot give an adequate amount of sideways restraint. This means that the opposite side spoke heads become slack and push into the tube. The end result is either spoke breakage or a front wheel puncture from the spokes on the inside of the tube, neither of which is good for the health when taking a left hand corner fast on a sidecar outfit. Hence the re-design of the hub. My informant suggests that the surplus early hubs were used up on 350cc machines on the grounds that these were unlikely to pull sidecars.

Good news for David Anderson though. As you are using your hub for a sidecar wheel, it does not have to be built with the rim central to the hub. So you can offset the rim to obtain equal angles from the vertical for the spokes each side. That should give sufficient strength to avoid the problems described above, particularly if you use as small a rim diameter as you possibly can. My informant has thought about your particular problem all day David and rang me back this evening with this advice.
Paul Jameson
36 4G, 37 VH, 53 ex ISDT KHA (project), 54 KH(A), 54 4G Mk IV (project), Healey 1000/4 (project)
Former Machine Registrar & Archivist, General Secretary and Single Spares Organiser.

john.bryant
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Re: Identification sought

Postby john.bryant » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:43 pm

Following on from this for which I thank you...I have been reading through Roger's theses and find that the teleforks were
widened about 1950? What are the measurements?
John

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Re: Identification sought

Postby david.anderson » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:23 am

Paul
Thanks. What I did not say before was that I have also purchased a BSA 8” front hub as it is similar in looks to the 7” Ariel hub. It was destined for the front wheel of the VB with sidecar and would look original to the casual observer. I do not like inadequate brakes so a braked sidecar wheel and a better front brake seemed like a good idea. But the BSA hub is also narrower than the Ariel hub, although the spokes to the drum side are a little shorter. I might have to rethink that also.
John
The forks were widened by ¼” in 1949 to increase the stanchion centres to 7 5/8”. There are however machining tolerances in the yokes. I have one bottom yoke that is near 7 ¾” centres. I have also noticed differences in the trail with various sets of yokes, which should also be the same from 1949 on.
David

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Re: Identification sought

Postby Bob.Murphy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:50 pm

When I restored/modified my '53 Square four in 1968-70, I fitted BSA A10 front forks as I wanted the 8" full-width hub. I then used a 'Pride & Clark' Twin leading shoe brake.

The Ariel yokes are wider than those of the BSA and I had to have a longer wheel spindle turned-up and also extended the brake torque arm. It worked well for the three years I had it on the road. The Wiseacres in the local VMCC Branch (Somerset) hated it :roll: .

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My avatar shows the late Len Rich in 1970 with the bike I now have - a 1958 Ariel VH


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