Which Bronze to use ?

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john.whiting
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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby john.whiting » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:19 am

BOC have always charged extortionate rentals here too,but last few years the buy yer own bottle scheme has hit the market,and now I get begging letters from BOC to entice me back ........I bought an oxygen cylinder for less than BOCs annual rental....Their gas prices are steep too,when I was in business ,I could get a G size O2 from a crowd I worked with for $10 (their cost),retail price was over $100 .

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pappleton
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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby pappleton » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:43 am

Installing 3ph is no small undertaking. My Harrison mill runs off a Transwave converter and the Corona pedestal drill off an invertor. The drill came out of a clients skip, it had been chucked out as he thought the spindle was bent. I replaced the JT/ Morse taper, now all good. The Colchester came to me as a single phase machine 40yrs ago. The guy who owned it kept getting electric shocks off it. I found that the spring holding the bob weights in the armature had rusted out, so replaced it with the spring from an oil seal.
The pot belly stove is a luxury Bob, In winter I'm wrapped up like an Egyptian mummy
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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:02 am

pappleton wrote:Installing 3ph is no small undertaking.


Fortunately, my (very large & very old) Farmhouse has three phases coming in. I use two phases for the domestic 240v supplies, each with 14-way consumer units.

I put trunking underground between the house and outbuilding some years ago. The Garage/Workshop runs from a single 40A MCB from one of the house consumer units.

BUT . . To install 3-phase neatly I should have a 3-phase meter running into a distribution board in the house. take an armoured SWA cable out to the outbuilding and do away with the 40A feed from the house.

Then run two house phases from the new distribution board (doing away with the two meters currently installed). I am using Red and Yellow phases in the house.

In the Outbuilding I'll have another distribution board providing two 3-phase outlets (with provision for a third) and take the Blue phase to the existing Garage Consumer Unit.

This gives a much better balance between the phases, whilst maintaining full phase separation and providing an 'elegant' layout.

In Britain our 3-phase system provides 415 volts.
Continental Europe has 380 volts.
USA (I believe) has 218 volts. If that is true (I read it recently) you guys must have some substantial wiring to handle the Amps :D .

Not to be messed with !

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cmfalco
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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby cmfalco » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:07 pm

Bob.Murphy wrote: USA (I believe) has 218 volts.
As far as I know the lowest level of 3-phase in the U.S. is "208V," but 400V, 415V, 480V and higher are typically available in industrial areas. However, it is uncommon here for 3-phase power to be supplied to residential neighborhoods so the next step up from our standard single-phase "110 V" is single-phase "220-240V."

The reason I used quotes is our voltages aren't as standardized as most people think. You will see our household voltage referred to as 110V, 115V, or 120V because those are common "standards" in different parts of the country depending on the transformers the local utility uses to step down from the transmission lines. Further, those are the no-load nominal voltages, which likely will be lower at the outlet when all the air conditioners in the neighborhood are on during the summer. Such variation is also the case for 3-phase voltages. Because of these variations, if you look at electrical equipment intended for industrial use you'll find a series of straps on the back that let you choose which tap of the internal transformer to use that most closely matches the actual voltage at the wall outlet.

I only have single-phase power at my house with most outlets in the garage 20A at 120V, but others are 20A at 240V, and the largest 50A at 240V. I have my 200A TIG welder plugged into a 20A 240V outlet and I use the 50A for my magneto magnetizer even though it only draws ~18A.

It may be obvious, but because of losses in the lines, drawing 20A from a 20A circuit almost certainly will reduce the voltage at the outlet so less power will be supplied than the full 240V x 20A. The wiring to my 50A outlet ensures that the voltage doesn't droop at all so that the magnetos are bathed in the maximum magnetic field (I have a separate 20A fuse at the magnetizer). My TIG is supposed to draw a max. of 15.8A at 230V so it draws only 60% of the available outlet power when working flat out. When I had the garage wired when we moved to the present house I had planned to have the electrician run heavier wiring than necessary for 20A to the TIG outlet, but he talked me out of it because that outlet is only 12" from the junction box.

My lathe was made with circuitry for 3-phase power so, short of rewiring it with new relays and such, I could have bought a phase converter. Instead I installed a large single-phase motor and a separate manual switch to reverse the wiring to the motor when I need to operate it in reverse.

But, perhaps we've drifted a bit off the topic of bronze...

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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby JohnnyBeckett » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:35 pm

you get it a lot you start one topic and land up a different topic and you lose what you started with

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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby david.anderson » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:54 pm

While off the main subject and on the subject of 3 phase, Charles has mentioned a 3 phase converter. I am currently running my 3 phase machines off a 3 phase converter, and it is something that I would not recommend unless there is no other way. I have several 3 phase machines, the biggest being 7.5kw. I purchased the converter due to the local supply authority cutting off 3 phase power to my area, even though the small rural subdivision that I live in is wired 3 phase. After talking to them they wanted a contribution of $90,000 to restore the 3 phase to the area.
The 3 phase converter has however been responsible I believe for the burning out of my 7.5kw motor. The wiring to my property was installed in an appropriate gauge to run the 7.5kw, however the current draw on starting the machine is huge, the machine starts slowly and dims all the lights in my shed until the motor reaches speed, at which point things return to normal and the amp gauge on the converter drops back significantly. It is apparently in the repeated starting of the machine where the excessive current draw can damage the motor. That said I am currently building elsewhere and this time I have a 415v three phase supply already fitted in my new shed, so I will soon not need a converter.
david

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Bob.Murphy
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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby Bob.Murphy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:36 pm

david.anderson wrote: I am currently running my 3 phase machines off a 3 phase converter, and it is something that I would not recommend unless there is no other way.


I looked into this some while back and it appeared a bit suspect to me. The 'converter' doesn't produce three phases, it produces two by splitting the single phase feed into two - the second acquiring a phase shift via some electronic gadgetry that delays the cycle.

The third phase comes from the "Back EMF" of the electric motor its driving, this means that the third phase is missing until the motor gets up to speed. Old motors used to have to start via a series of resistors that limited the current draw. This appeared as a lever working in a gate, a bit like a gear change mechanism. Nowadays its all electronic.

Also, you don't get something for nothing so the three-phase power coming out will always be less than the single-phase power going in, which limits its capacity.

We are off topic but its very educational. I guess we all have interests apart from 'Classic' motorcycles and one interest supports another - I use the lathes & mill to make bike parts 8-) but I also like to know how everything works.

Bob.
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pappleton
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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby pappleton » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:37 am

This chaps 3ph rotary converter seems to be the best out there. I've been looking for the old type 3ph motor he mentions, a lot harder to find than you may think. Any leads would be welcome, around 15hp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXPKDEqcVLY&t=28s
BR, Paul
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Bob.Murphy
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Re: Which Bronze to use ?

Postby Bob.Murphy » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:36 am

An interesting series of vids - I stopped after three !

I suspect a visit to the 'Dorset Steam Fair' might be worthwhile as people with traction engines, road rollers & stationary engines are likely to have space and piles of stuff they never throw out :lol: . The Heritage Railway sites might be a good source of an old British fan-cooled motor as well.

It all has the feel of 'Alchemy' about it :? .

I need to contact Scottish Power (God help me) to see what is involved in moving to three phase.

Bob.
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