Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

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Gui.dorey
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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby Gui.dorey » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:04 am

Some more progress on my investigations.

After checking all the oil passages and pipes and cleaning everything I reassembled the pump, refilled the oil tank and primed the pump. I left it over night and the result is that the Morgo is definitely wet sumping and quite a lot.

Oil seeps out of plain bearing into the timing chest and into the crankcase. As you can see from the pictures the oil amount that seeped out over night is quite a bit, and at this rate the crankcase would be quite full in just a few days. The area just under the pinion was spotlessly clean yesterday and one can see a drop of oil into the pan every 4-5 seconds. I also turned the engine to two or three different positions, thus rotating the pump to different positions, to make sure it is not a bad spot or position inside the pump. It didn‘t matter which position, the pump leaked on all of them.

My theory at the moment is that every time I started the bike, the sump was quite full. The pump scavenged the oil back up to the tank, but it probably took quite a few miles before the the sump was empty, if ever. It is during this time that the amount of oil being thrown around in the cases ended up going out the breather and into the primary. Perhaps this is also the reason why my Sq4 took so long to come up to operating temperature - as I‘ve mentioned before, it took at least 5 miles before she was at temperature and I could shut the bi starter completely.

So the question is, does anyone have any ideas what could be wrong with the pump or what can be done before I send it in for repairs back to Morgo? Or if maybe I am assembling something wrongly?

Cheers
Gui
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1951 Ariel Square Four MKI
1954 Ariel NH Red Hunter
1929 BSA Sloper
1946 BSA B31 (project)
1954 BSA C11G
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1951 Harley WL 45

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markus.nikot
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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby markus.nikot » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:06 am

A Morgo in good condition should not wet sump.
My MkI and MkII, both equipped with this pump stay dry.

Good luck
Markus
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klaus gerhard
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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby klaus gerhard » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:09 am

Gui,
an easy test would be to fit the original plunger oil pump and check if there is any difference to the MORGO setup. My Mk1 still uses the plunger pump and she does not wetsump!
Regards Klaus

Gui.dorey
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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby Gui.dorey » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:28 am

Hi Klaus,

Unfortunately I don‘t have the original pump. Just the one Morgo.

Grüße
Gui
1951 Ariel Square Four MKI
1954 Ariel NH Red Hunter
1929 BSA Sloper
1946 BSA B31 (project)
1954 BSA C11G
1960 Harley Sportster XLH
1951 Harley WL 45

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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby allan.walker » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:49 pm

Hello Gui,
Well, that seems to have proved a point. My understanding was that these pumps had a built-in valve to prevent wet-sumping (presumably because gear-type pumps are always prone to this.)
I've just looked on Morgo's website and there are two gasket options when ordering these pumps. The product details say 'gasket options - 11 Hole Internal Pressure Adjustor, 12 Hole External Pressure Adjustor'

I've no idea what this reference to internal and external pressure adjusters means.

Could this be related to the problem with your bike? Have you contacted Morgo about your concerns?

Allan.

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Paul_Linden
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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby Paul_Linden » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:00 pm

The internal / external pressure adjuster refers to the two different types of oil pressure valve that Ariel fitted. The early version has the oil pressure valve visible at the front of the timing chest. The Morgo pump for both types is the same but they provide whichever gasket is correct for your square four.
Square 4 mk1, Square 4 mk2, Ariel Colt, Matchless G12, BSA C12.

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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby allan.walker » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:02 pm

That's interesting, Paul.
In that case, what would be the consequence of using the incorrect gasket, I wonder?

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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby Paul_Linden » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:08 pm

The gasket is for the timing chest, not the oil pump, which wasn’t clear in my post.
If you try to use the wrong gasket it is obviously incorrect.
Square 4 mk1, Square 4 mk2, Ariel Colt, Matchless G12, BSA C12.

Gui.dorey
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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby Gui.dorey » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:21 pm

allan.walker wrote:
Could this be related to the problem with your bike? Have you contacted Morgo about your concerns?

Allan.


Allan, the gasket is for the timing chest cover as Paul explained, and has nothing to do with the pump.

I‘ve written to Morgo describing the problem so let‘s see what they say.

While yours is opened up, have you checked if any oil is seeping through the plain bearings, or is everything dry on yours?
1951 Ariel Square Four MKI
1954 Ariel NH Red Hunter
1929 BSA Sloper
1946 BSA B31 (project)
1954 BSA C11G
1960 Harley Sportster XLH
1951 Harley WL 45

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Re: Sq4 MKI - Oil return problems w/ Morgo pump

Postby allan.walker » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:51 pm

Paul_Linden wrote:The gasket is for the timing chest, not the oil pump, which wasn’t clear in my post.
If you try to use the wrong gasket it is obviously incorrect.


Thanks Paul, but that throws up another question for me.
My bike has a Mk1 bottom end with a Mk2 top end grafted on by the previous owner. It also came to me with a Morgo oil pump fitted.

When I began chasing oil leakage, I bought a new timing cover gasket from Drags and fitted it, oblivious of the existence of two different gaskets and simply ordering from their webshop which shows one part number for Mk1 and Mk2 engines.
I'm wondering now how the gasket I bought compares with either of the two types which Morgo supply with the Mk1 oil pump.

Also, could you please point me in the direction of information about the two different types of pressure release valves on Mk1's?

Thank you!.


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